Even the most bullish Bitcoiners are drastically underestimating the inevitable and meteoric rise of bitcoin as it becomes adopted on a global scale.

This is a transcribed version of the Bitcoin Magazine Podcast, hosted by P and Q. In this episode, they are joined by Christian Keroles to talk about how even the most bullish Bitcoiners are not bullish enough on the positive benefits Bitcoin will have for the world.

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[00:00:05] Q: Welcome back everyone. Thank you for taking those commercial breaks. And we are joined by none other than CK SNAs, as you may know him on Twitter, we know him, Christian, how goes it, CK? What’s up? Also, how’s my audio better than last time we saw you. We should probably actually give him a proper introduction, because technically speaking, this is our boss, this is our fearless leader. He is the man in charge of all things Bitcoin magazine. Was that, did that cover the gist of everything you do?

[00:00:38] CK: And then some, yeah. You know, just making things happy, trying to stay bullish so

[00:00:43] Q: Well, as you try to say, bullish you have pretty much shamed all of us. And we’re just gonna start right there. Cuz you just, you’ve been on a little bit of a rant for the last few weeks on Twitter. Trying to call out just Bitcoiners in general, say they’re not bullish enough. Like what do you mean by that?

[00:01:00] CK: How do you feel about 100K? Is that a lot of money for Bitcoin? How do you feel about a million dollars for Bitcoin?

Those are rookie numbers. I mean, I agree better, but not gonna, I feel like people Bitcoiners talk about like, they’re like, what’s my bull scenario and they’re like 3 million Bitcoin. I’m like, guys, like, come on, like, you guys are really fucking bearish. I just, I feel like this idea of like infinity divided by 21 million, like Bitcoiners kind of like beat their chest about it, but they, they haven’t thought about it enough.

Like what does that actually mean? And then like, if you’ve, then thought about what that actually means, like how you need to. Behave in order to see that future because, you know, I think, you know, obviously it’s one thing is like being able to see the, the correct future. And then it’s like how to position yourself for that.

That’s the other part. So I mean that, I that’s how I’d like high level frame. It like why it’s important to be bullish enough, be the appropriate amount of bullishness, because otherwise you might fuck up.

So I’m, I want to get your sense on this because I think you’re right in saying this idea that, oh, like a hundred K a million, 3 million, like that’s not bullish enough, but is just the sheer fact that there is still this conversation around Bitcoin will be worth X number of dollars.

Fiat of this Fiat relationship, is that not the most bearish sentiment out there versus something like saying, I want one Bitcoin to be able to afford me a house, two cars, this like just a laundry list of things. And then mm-hmm, changing the equation to say, I don’t necessarily need it to be worth this much in Fiat.

I need it to have this much buying power for these necessities. Would that be a more bullish conversation in your opinion?

I mean, yeah. I think buying power is like the more accurate way to think about Bitcoin long term, but I mean, I’m not thinking about buying power of Bitcoins. I’m talking, I’m thinking about buying power of sat.

So again, like if we repriced the world in sat and then like, Repricing the world in stats and then staying at this current baseline is in my opinion already really fucking bearish. Like isn’t the whole point of Bitcoin is that it’s like a fundamental massive upgrade on how we communicate and measure and store and transact and share value amongst each other.

Like it theoretically, like Fiat has been holding us back. And, Bitcoin can actually enable even more innovation, even more wealth, even more prosperity. So just like calculating where we’re at right now, and then trying to come up with some, you know, what, what can a buy in power will a, a re-priced world in SATs give you like one, I think that’s gonna blow people’s socks off, but two that’s still bearish because that’s not taking into account.

The upgrade to society that is Bitcoin. The upgrade to the world that is.

[00:04:14] Q: So, what does hyperbitcoinization mean to you?

[00:04:19] CK: I mean, I think it’s simple. It’s repricing the world in sets. So everything, everything like Bitcoin is a, is a, is a value communication protocol. So we need to use it to value, to value and communicate that value. So, when every aspect of the world is settling value, either denominated in Bitcoin or, or settled directly on the Bitcoin blockchain or some derivative of the Bitcoin blockchain, like that’s hyper ization to me.

And then again, like, There’s a conversation about, you know, what’s the price of stats today. What’s the buying power of stats in the future? And then like, what, you know, can you do, is it humanly possible for your brain to project out accurately what the future will look like? You know, given Bitcoin as our, as our global money.

And, and I just think that one, we can’t, it’s impossible to like, I, and I I’ll I’ll stand by this, like, hey, Nikola Tesla was pretty famous for a lot of things, but I would say like the, probably the thing that he was probably most famous about is he could actually kind of start to project, you know, what electricity will allow us to do.

Like, he was on the right track. Like he was in many ways, you know, slight, almost bullish enough, almost bullish enough. So, you know, I don’t think any of us are visionaries or savant like Tesla or. Live nets or, or fricking Benjamin Franklin or, or Newton or any of these people who, you know, kind of had the vision when there was no groundwork there.

So I like, I think, you know, we’re still extremely early, like we’re, we’re in the monetization process. Like we haven’t even gotten to that point where Bitcoin is, is the unit of account. And then once Bitcoin’s the unit of account, that’s like, that’s when the journey starts. Like that’s, that’s when the real, like strides in, in innovation start happening because we’re not being weighed down by Fiat.

So I just, again, I question like, is there a human being alive that’s bullish enough? And then if even your wildest dreams of bullishness are, are bearish, like, okay, how do you, how do you adjust your behavior to like, try to like, not fuck this thing up? Because like, again, if you’re not bullish enough, odds are, is you sell your Bitcoin too early, or you.

You don’t position yourself correctly. Like we can get into the specific scenarios, but I mean, I guess what what’s, y’all’s take on, on that. Like again, I’m just trying to understand what’s happening and again, position myself, right? That’s the whole point of Bitcoin is to get sats, you know, pass ‚em down and, and reap the benefits of Bitcoin’s hyper monetization.

[00:07:03] P: I completely agree with you. I mean, I think it is very difficult to be bullish enough on this asset, even as Bitcoiners. I think that I also am selfishly I’m like, Hey, let’s keep the price low so that I can acquire more of them and the people I care about and, you know, people that that we’re trying to reach with Bitcoin magazine and the conference and everything that we’re doing can have a better chance to get in on this.

But yeah, I mean, I think that Bitcoin is definitely going to become the. Store a value for the entire world. And I think that’s gonna happen within our lifetimes maybe shortly after, but the ride up it’s just the, the risk reward profile on Bitcoin is so asymmetric. It’s astounding to me that more people are not as bullish as you are CK as you like to say, 37 sats will be generational wealth.

[00:08:00] CK: I mean, well, like, let’s just, let’s just think about this in terms of, so 37 sat, that’s the block reward and I think 97 years I thought it was a hundred years when I picked it, but it actually wasn’t. So it was kind of a fucked up mistake on my part, but 97 years from now, 37 task will be the block award.

So if Bitcoin works, that means a significant amount of the world’s energy is gonna be used. on a, you know, daily basis on a 10 minute per block basis in order to get those 37 sats. So if Bitcoin works, odds are 37 sats are worth it versus they’re not worth it. So what does that mean? Like how, like, let’s try to like, if Bitcoin works, what the fuck is this all gonna, like, how is this gonna look like?

And then again, like let’s zoom into like, okay, what can you even predict? What is going, what the world’s gonna look like in 97 years. Right. Okay. Let’s fast. Let’s go backwards in 97 years. Like that’s pre world war II. Like, do you think anyone then could have like predicted what the hell we’d be doing now?

Like hell no. Hell no. They’re all way off. A hundred percent of all of ‚em are a hundred percent off. So I think it’s, there’s a higher likelihood of 37 stats being generational wealth than not. So that’s my calculation there.

[00:09:20] Q: So. I wanna address one of the questions that came from LinkedIn really quickly.

Not a dumb question. You’re just learning man. So SA is short for Satoshi. It’s the smallest increment of Bitcoin. There are a hundred million satoshi in every Bitcoin. It is essentially all of the decimal places out. So that is what we mean when we say SATs. And if there are other questions in that vein that you guys don’t understand what we are saying, please feel free to write a comment about it, and we will do our best to address these as we continue this conversation.

I, you guys are just gonna call me a bear. I don’t give a shit. I’ve said this countless times and I kind of, I really do believe this. We unfortunately will not see the dollar disappear in our lifetime, what it will be used for and how it’ll be used may drastically shift the opportunities to use Bitcoin.

I do believe it will continue to evolve and there will be greater opportunities than what we have today. I just, maybe I’m still

[00:10:22] CK: stuck in it completely de disagree, but fair fair. I mean, I will, I guess like, Hey, how much of our telecommunication is done via phone line versus done over the internet now?

[00:10:34] Q: Like I would say almost mine, almost a hundred percent is done via the internet.

[00:10:38] CK: And that happened without telephone cables, killing themselves. Like you’re saying that the dollar is gonna survive it, we’re never gonna in our lifetimes get, go beyond it. Bitcoin is an upgrade onto the dollar onto that monetary system. Right. And, and on top of that, the dollar is actually killing itself.

Like it is in the process of killing itself. So like, to me, it is just absolutely asinine to say something like in our lifetime, the dollar is going to continue to be relevant against the most perfect monetary system that has ever been created. Like it it’s, it’s absolutely Justine. It’s absolutely bearish it’s so bear it’s like, Hey, you know, like we’re still gonna just use the fucking pony express, even though we have phone lines now, you know why?

Because the government like shut the fuck up. Like shut the fuck up. Yeah,

[00:11:34] P: That’s right. Sorry.

[00:11:35] Q: That’s right. What today?

[00:11:37] CK: It’s just AB it’s just like, like how are you calling yourself a Bitcoin and have that opinion? It’s just insane to me.

[00:11:42] Q: You are MIS,

[00:11:44] CK: but with that, Bitcoin is, I would say that Bitcoin is binary. So you should prepare for a, you know, everything or zero scenario.

[00:11:53] Q: Okay, we will unpack that, but you are misrepresenting my quote. I am not saying that we are going to only be using the dollar and we’re going to be stuck on the dollar. What I genuinely believe is going to happen is there will be some form of a return to a dollar backed by some form of sound money.

And I do believe Bitcoin can and will take that role. I don’t believe that every single country in the world is going to transact on Bitcoin. Unfortunately not while I am alive. I do believe in the future to P.

[00:12:23] CK: Is there a country that doesn’t have a website?

[00:12:34] CK: The island nation of Q I’m pretty, I’m pretty like it isn’t car, like, Central African Republic. One of the industrialized and advanced countries in the world, every country has got a website. They even have a fucking it’s like, bro, like, this is, this is the bearishness that I’m trying to address here guys.

It’s like, Bitcoin is a fundamental step-change up. It’s like, Hey, we have missiles, but Hey, you know what? We’re still gonna use bow and arrows. It’s like, no, we’re not like you’re good. Have fun. Staying poor, like have fun becoming completely irrelevant in the world. It’s like, how long did it take like a communist system that had a top down economic model compared to, I mean, you could argue that we live in a state communist system today that has a free, like free marketish model.

Like those things right next to each other. It didn’t take very long for, for capitalism to, to win. Like, again, when you have two systems that compete next to each other, the system that is inferior. Technologically dies. So like that is what is gonna happen to Fiat currency again. And that’s what’s gonna happen in gold too.

I’m not saying that it’s just Fiat. It’s just governments. I’m saying it’s like gold houses, ETS. It’s like literally every single way that you could have communicated in stored value is getting disrupted. Okay.

[00:13:56] Q: A hundred percent of it. We will unpack the binary outcome, but I want you to defend your claims right now, because what you are essentially saying is like, there’s no value in the future of your home.

So what is like, what does that really mean? How do you think we get to a point where all of the value in the world is only in Bitcoin? Because let me tell you something. It is gonna be a lot more painful than I think you are giving it credit for. And ping brings out parts of people, parts of governments that we may not have ever seen before.

This is not just gonna be a, oh, you know what? That’s a better technology. Let’s just go there. There’s gonna be fighting. There’s gonna be legitimate. Fine. I agree. People are gonna lose a lot. And when people lose a lot, they will fucking fight back. So yeah, no,

[00:14:40] CK: I mean, how do you think we get it? I agree. I mean, I think that Bitcoiners need the, be the appropriate level of bullishness.

So that way they can position themselves appropriately for the shit storm. That’s about toue between here and hyper ization. I think there’s a really great metaphor to that. Tina and Joe Carlos, sorry were using on the podcast had dropped with them yesterday, but it’s like, if you’re on one side of the grand canyon and you are looking again across the other side of the, the grand canyon and that is hyper ization, like a lot of Bitcoiners are like, oh, we’ll just get over there.

But no, there’s this whole fucking canyon in between. So like you need to be prepared for the journey you need to get across the canyon. Otherwise you’re going to get absolutely wrecked. And honestly, my position right now is that one. Most Bitcoiners already have enough Bitcoiners Bitcoin to be extremely, extremely wealthy in a Bitcoin eyes world, which will happen pretty soon too.

Is that getting across the finish line is gonna be a lot harder than you think. And honestly, I think that like there’s a top in how much Bitcoin, Bitcoin hardcore Bitcoiners at this time have like, I think hard, a lot of hardcore Bitcoiners think that they’re. Have more Bitcoin in the future. They’re gonna keep accumulating Bitcoin at low prices.

I honestly think that maybe some, some Bitcoiners, double or triple their stack in the next few years. And then by the time we get to 2030, they’ve lost a lot of it, right. Either through theft, death, bribery, extortion, having to leave a country loss of keys, like I’m serious. Like there’s like you, you name it.

There’s so many ways to lose those Bitcoin. And I really do think that there’s gonna be a lot of like hardcore Bitcoiners who have like, they literally have topped in their sat count because they’re not ready. So, I mean, honestly, you already have enough stats. You should be focusing all your effort on just getting that shit across the finish.

[00:16:31] Q: Okay. You have not yet answered my question though. So I’m gonna ask it again. What are the steps that you think are gonna happen to get to that point? Like where are the pain points that are gonna happen, that we have to mentally start preparing for? If you’re telling us that there’s gonna be no value in the future of your homes, where are people gonna be living?

[00:16:49] CK: Well? So that’s a straw, man. I’m not saying that there’s gonna be no value in the future at home, but maybe there you, you, we will stop Arcan using houses to store value, these assets that, you know, okay. Maybe the, the real estate itself is not being built up more of, but the actual asset itself is depreciating.

Like it’s this house. I just moved into a brand new house. Like, since I’ve moved in, it’s only gotten damaged. Right. It’s only gotten damaged. So sounds like the actual house itself is a li no, I’m just saying it’s a reality. It’s, it’s a liability, but, so, I mean, the house itself is a liability. So why is it being used to store value and how is it gonna compete?

Something that is a much more advanced store value that has no liability attached to it. So I like, I’m not saying that like your house is not gonna be stored value, but maybe if you’re, or is not gonna be like, is gonna be value list. I’m sure your house will be very valuable, especially if it’s has a great location or if it’s in the right neighborhood or if it’s close to where you wanna are your family, or, you know, if it’s the construction and build that you think is perfect for you, but using homes as a store of value, I think is being disrupted, absolutely using paintings as a store of value beyond your sentimental value for that art.

Like, I think it’s gonna be disrupted significantly. Maybe there’s a fringe group that does it, but it’s just not gonna be a mainstream way to store value. Just like again, the pony express is not a mainstream way to send messages. Maybe it still exists. Like maybe it’s still relevant to some people, but like, it’s just not gonna be mainstream.

And again, like everyone needs a home to live in, but I think that a lot more people are gonna have a home to live in when BlackRock isn’t funneling fucking ETF value into every home in America and pumping up the prices, indiscriminately. Like I think that the, the lack of store of value in Fiat is actually hurting society.

Right? Like you think your house being valuable is a good thing for society. It’s not, it’s a bad thing because now people can’t have homes because they’re getting priced outta homes. But yet, you know, there’s like, there’s like a double digit amount of New York city apartments that are vacant at all times.

It’s just, it’s obscene. And guess what people are like, why is New York so much more expensive than it ever was before? Well guess what? Cuz more apartments in New York are being used as store value than ever before. So. Look, Bitcoin’s gonna fundamentally upgrade the world in many ways. And part of that is literally sucking out by competition via out competing every other store of value on the planet.

I have this, I did a presentation. It was called how much Bitcoin do you really need? And one of the slides I took, like, it was like a rough it was like a rough estimate of the store of value market. I believe that the rough estimate is like here, I’m actually gonna pull up the slide. But the rough estimate I think is like, do, do do 13 quadri dollars.

I mean, Dylan LeClair says that it’s $6 trillion or quadri dollars. But this, this rough estimate was 13 quadri dollars. So like, let’s just assume derivatives real estate bonds, currency, stock gold, silver alt coins. All of that is divided by 21 million as Bitcoiners, like to LARP about. Okay, well, you’re looking at $6 in 2 cents per Shi.

right like that, that, like, are you, are, do you consider that you think a sat is gonna be $6 and 2 cents, and again, that is bearish. Like that’s not even treating Bitcoin as an upgrade as like something that’s gonna create more wealth. Right? Like, did the electricity bring more wealth to your life?

Absolutely. Like the electricity, electricity, the invention of electricity compounded wealth, like exponentially from where it was before. And it increased everyone’s quality of life exponentially from where it was before. So like we’re, we’re, we’re dividing the current preh colonization market cap of the world value of the world by 21 million.

And it’s $6 in whatever sense per Satoshi. So, I mean, like y’all are bears. Like if this thing again, if this thing works like y’all are fucking bears, this thing’s gonna go. It’s gonna blow your socks off. We’re going Melissa Toshi 37, SAS are gonna be generational wealth. Like we’re gonna have fucking Dyson spheres sucking up energy off the, off the sun.

Like, you know, hopefully we’re inter planetary at that point, maybe we’re worrying about bigger problems, which is, you know, how much of the universe we can stuff into 21 million Bitcoin. Like if it works, like we need to get so much more bullish. Like what, what’s our baseline. Like, it’s insane.

[00:21:29] Q: I don’t think you are properly addressing or thinking through and he just walked away.

So he’s not gonna hear this. I don’t think CK, you are actually thinking through what has to happen between the current system and our real estate market. And this idea that you have that everyone’s just gonna have a house. And there has to be a lot of steps in between. And I think quite frankly, the assumption you are drawing is wealthy Bitcoiners.

Just gonna start buying a plot of real estate and just giving them out to people. Yeah. And that’s so unrealistic. And I think, I think what’s more likely to

[00:22:06] CK: happen. What, what, what is straw, man? If I ever heard one,

[00:22:09] Q: let me finish, please. I let you finish. Let me

[00:22:12] CK: okay. Just stop throwing strawman at me. Steel man, ne bro steel, man.


[00:22:19] Q: I do not think you are quite frankly, thinking through what are the steps to get to the point you are actually claiming we will get to that is one possible scenario. Another possible scenario that I quite frankly think we’re scar gonna have come to fruition is to your point. BlackRock, private equity firms are buying up a lot of real estate.

they’re just gonna be our landlords or the fucking government will be our landlords. And then all of a sudden there is no value in real estate because it’s held in the hands of a few. So I don’t understand quite frankly, how you are getting to this conclusion, what steps you think will happen. That is a lot of pain to get to a point that you are claiming will happen without explaining to me, what are the, what are the pain points to get there?

[00:23:05] CK: The thing is like, I, I can’t, I can’t explain these super complicated things on this show that simply right. Like one, if I knew all the answers, I wouldn’t be on this show, bro. I, I, I would be advising some really important people. Maybe they’d be listening to me. Maybe they wouldn’t be, I don’t know, but I don’t know all the answers there, but what I can tell you is that first and foremost, Bitcoin is happening.

No matter what, like Bitcoin’s here, Bitcoin is happen. Number two. Bitcoin is actually a solution to a complete cluster. Fuck, that’s coming no matter what. Right? So the absolute indiscriminate fucking that humanity is about to experience is coming with or without Bitcoin it’s and it’s coming because of the centralization, the destruction of the sanctity of a gold based system, you know, the concentration of power, you could bring up like the invention of nuclear weapons and the inability to, for, you know, anyone to compete past, having nuclear.

I don’t know, like there’s so many different ways that you can slice and dice how we got to this point of like, absolutely fucked as humanity, but guess what? There’s this little thing called Bitcoin that got invented and all of a sudden it changes everything. It absolutely changes everything. And personally, for me, I think like Bitcoin’s binary.

So I like, I started, I started the conversation or my notes by saying Bitcoin is binary. But the reality is, is that Bitcoin is a set of incentives. If that incentive structure works and continues to work into perpetuity, most likely like Bitcoin out, competes all other assets and sucks up all and becomes the dominant source of value in the human universe.

Right? If Bitcoin doesn’t like, kind of go on this, this journey to its final destiny, it will kill itself. Like the alt pointers all talk about like, oh my God, what happens when the block award goes to zero? And there’s no one using Bitcoin, well, guess what? Bitcoin’s fucking dead. Like, no one’s using what no one cares about it.

And guess what? Like the block board went to zero, but it, that, that, that is not really a scenario that’s like worth focusing on like pretty much you should acknowledge that scenario. You should be like, what’s the percentage chance that that happens. You should prepare for effectively Bitcoin zero. But in terms of like, thinking about Bitcoin, it doesn’t really even make sense to like, think about, to, to think about a Bitcoin scenario where it’s like, where Bitcoin’s like this middle ground asset, where Bitcoin is just like, Hey, it’s working, it’s fine.

You know, maybe there’s gonna be fee issues. Maybe we need a fricking extend the, the, the tail emissions. It’s like, no, like that’s, that’s failure. That’s absolute failure. It’s like either the incentives work 21 million works proof of work works. The, the node network works or it doesn’t. So again, if, if it does work okay, Figure out.

What, what is infinity divided by 21 million, figure out how many stats you need to get. So you can be satisfied, multiply that by, you know, some sort of exponential function to address for your in human inability to be bullish enough and then focus all your energy on getting across the finish line. Like that’s what I’m saying is shit is gonna get gnarly Q like it’s not gonna be good.

Like demonetization of all this stuff is going to make the world go absolutely haywire, but it’s happening no matter what. So like, do you have the bullets and do you have the passports and do you have all the other things that you need? Do you have the multisig Strategy and the, the the what’s it called?

The way to pass down your Bitcoin to your heirs. If something happens to you, like, if not, like, are you even preparing enough, right. Like your inheritance plan. Thank you, Chris is absolutely necessary if you’re bullish enough, honestly. And I mean, again, if you have enough Bitcoin today to be enormously wealthy in the future, like where are you out?

Like, where are you setting your priorities? Like, again, it’s important to be bullish enough. So that way you can, you can adjust how you behave and you can make sure you, you get past, you know, the craziness that’s coming.

[00:27:20] Q: So I’m gonna present this question in a different way. We’re all familiar with Darwin’s theory of evolution.

For those who are not Darwin did not believe evolution was gradual. It happened in each generation. Something would cave. The best trait would then carry on to the next generation. So on and so forth. So my question to you guys is, do you think this shift from our Fiat system to Bitcoin will be gradual or will it be this sharp shift that will just one day will wake up and they’ll say we’re now on the Bitcoin standard.

[00:27:53] CK: Is it me first?

[00:27:54] Q: I mean, I’ll even share my opinion on this first. No, no,

[00:27:57] P: wait, I wanna hear, I wanna hear CKS and then I’ll give you

[00:27:59] CK: mine and then I wanna hear yours. Yeah. I mean, I feel like I’ve been ranting a lot, so I’m curious to hear what you guys think, but no, I mean, my mental model for hyper ization is 2030.

It happens in the next 30 years happens first in the energy industry. And that’s really the, the fulcrum for a Bitcoin standard. So, I don’t know exactly how that plays out, but you know, I do think that we are, the trajectory is sound so things are escalating very quickly. Bitcoin is becoming more and more relevant and like Bitcoin is not even an order magnitude away from goal to market cap.

So like one more order, magnitude upgrade and Bitcoin is literally a geopolitically. It, you know, it’s, it’s on the geopolitical level of every other Fiat currency that is relevant, you know, the dollar goal, I mean the dollar euros the Chinese, you won, et cetera. So again, like it, it’s not gonna take that much for Bitcoin to be extremely, extremely relevant on a geopolitical scale.

And as long as Bitcoin continues to go deeper and deeper into the. The the energy ground that is the, the fulcrum of, of hyper colonization from there.

[00:29:12] P: Yeah. I think you nailed it. I think that to answer your question specifically, Q I think that,

[00:29:15] Q: A lot

[00:29:16] P: of these things that lead to hyper Bitcoin as world are already happening, and it is difficult.

It is difficult to distinguish like which one is sort of like the breaking point versus, you know, something else, a step on that path, but there are going to be a succession of like major events. We don’t know what those are. I would say, you know, definitely within our lifetimes that take us down that path.

I agree with CK that it’s gonna probably start in the energy markets. But you know, there’s no way to predict it. Specif.

[00:29:47] Q: So I hate to say it like this, but I actually agree with both of you. I was really hoping to, to get some pushback here on this one, but it it’s a combination of the two. I think what CK outlined is very spot on. It will happen industry at a time until eventually we will look back and be like, oh, Bitcoin is everywhere doing everything and functioning as it was meant to function.

But there’s gonna be a

[00:30:09] P: landslide eventually. Like there’s gonna be a point where every, where suddenly everybody in the same way that contagion works, right. It’s gonna be contagion to Bitcoin. So just like we saw, you know, Celsius blow up three AC, blow up and then they start, you start having these sort of like knockdown effects and the effect gets greater and greater and greater.

We’re going to see the same thing because as soon as you know, a certain, a large enough proportion of things are being denominated in Bitcoin, whether explicitly or behind the scenes, everyone’s gonna be like, oh fuck, I gotta get my shit into Bitcoin. That’s the only thing that actually matters. And I don’t know when that point’s gonna be, but it’s gonna happen.

Slowly slowly, it’s gonna be GRA I hate to say this it’s we just storm which way it’s gonna be gradually. And then

[00:30:46] Q: suddenly, yeah, I, I can agree with that. I mean, this, this is literally the, so when Greg FOSS says his thing of Bitcoin is a credit default swap on Fiat, that’s essentially what he is saying.

And for those who are less familiar of what a credit default swap really is, think of it like insurance, insurance on a bond or something that you think will eventually not pan out and you’re paying year over year. What Michael Murray did was buy a credit default, swap on a bunch of some prime mortgage loans.

What we are doing with Bitcoin is buying a bunch of Bitcoin, cuz we believe the Fiat currency system will fail. Michael birdie thought the subprime mortgage market was failing. So every year he would put. Few million dollars into this insurance plan, cuz he thought it would collapse and fail. I genuinely believe it is no different.

And that is what FOS is trying to explain and to pee in CKS points here, it is exactly that it will be slowly. This one industry will take it. And then the, the industry that’s just tangentially over. We’ll see, Hey wait, that industry is booming. And the difference here is they took, they adopted Bitcoin.

How did one industry really take hold it’s because one company led the charge and all of its competitors are like, oh shit, they’re using Bitcoin and they’re making more money. So it is to your point. It is slowly and then suddenly. And it will be very suddenly and people will not, it will be too late by the time everyone realizes it to ape into Bitcoin, but it was too late to buy a credit default swap in summer of 2007 because the housing market already started crashing the time to buy.

It was years earlier to get prepared for the inevit. However, there will be this stretch of time where all of us will sound like the crazy person at the dinner party is like, oh, that is the Bitcoin guy. He thinks the world is gonna that’s right now. Totally. So I don’t appreciate being called a, a skeptic on Bitcoin, however, CK.

So you can go fuck yourself on that one.

[00:32:45] CK: My friend, dude, you get less bearish than man. I don’t know what to tell you. Like what we’re talking like. We are talking about the basics of bullishness, which is that Bitcoin is a step, is a fundamental upgrade on the current system. Therefore is gonna have fundamental increases in our amount of wealth that we have access to.

So if you’re even comparing it to what we’re dealing with, it’s like you’re in the stone age and you’re talking about the industrial age. It’s just like, it’s like, we’re moving into the future. Like you can’t even compare, you can’t even compare. And that’s why, again, I’m telling Bitcoiners one, you need to be bullish enough.

So that way you can prepare yourself for the shit show that we are about to embark. And then two, like how much Bitcoin do you actually need? Like, should you be focusing all your energy on stacking stats? I don’t know. I don’t know. So, I mean, I’m all about stacking stats. I stack stats every single week, multiple times a day, even I stack every dip, but I’m also really focused on cash flow.

I’m also really focused on security. I’m also really focused on my my inheritance plan. And honestly, I need to be doing more. I need to be doing a lot more. And honestly, I could probably be focusing a lot more on that stuff, cuz I probably already have enough stats. And honestly, most of you do too.

If Bitcoin works, you probably already do so. I mean, I’m not saying to keep stacking, but focus on keeping it, focus on keeping it.

[00:34:07] P: Yeah. To that point. One thing that I think is important is as bullish as we are, this is a it is a marathon. and so you need to be managing, in my opinion, you need to be managing your cash flow effectively.

So, you know, for people like if you go all in on Bitcoin and then the Bitcoin price drops as it, as it has, you need to have a plan in place so that you are able to sustain your lifestyle, your family, all the stuff that’s important. So, you know, plan accordingly, don’t just you know, to to go back to CKS analogy of the grand canyon, don’t just throw yourself into the abyss and be like, I’m gonna be fine, bro.

Plan ahead.

[00:34:46] Q: So let’s unpack this binary outcome situation. What, why don’t you CK take the time to really explain what, what it is you mean by this potential binary outcome. And let’s start first with the possibility that it doesn’t work. And what does that really.

[00:35:07] CK: Okay. So I think it’s really important to think of Bitcoin, at least it’s end like potential outcomes is the least likely potential outcome is that Bitcoin is like marginally relevant.

You know, Bitcoin’s just whatever, you know, it’s just another cryptocurrency. It’s just another asset. Like that’s not gonna be the case. And again, a lot of the bear cases on Bitcoin kind of come around that it’s like, if Bitcoin’s just another cryptocurrency, like I’m looking at its economic model and it’s going to fail.

And I would say, yes, that is true. If, if Bitcoin is just another cryptocurrency, it will fail. But guess what? It’s not just another cryptocurrency. Bitcoin is the dominant cryptocurrency. Bitcoin is the ultimate store of value. Bitcoin is gonna be the Nuer error for for measuring value, the metric system for measuring value.

And on top of that, the way it does that is by having this perfect monetary system and this perfect hard cap. And if that hard cap does not work, it will not be competitive against the other things. There’s other things that will outcompete it. So we, we need Bitcoin to be the perfect money and we need the incentives to work for Bitcoin to work as it is.

And if Bitcoin gets forked, if something changes to the monetary the monetary policy of the system, it’s no longer Bitcoin and that experiment has failed and will be onto the next one. So I just don’t see a world where Bitcoin is just this, whatever average currency. I really only see hyper ization or failure.

So I think Bitcoiners should prepare for those two situations. One, if it’s hyper ization, like get enough Bitcoin to be extremely wealthy in that situation and make sure that you’re taking care of all the other things that could kill you, steal your wealth between now and. And then if Bitcoin goes to zero, well, you should have other shit, like maybe have some gold, maybe have some bullets, maybe it’s worth it to buy a house as a hedge.

I don’t know. Like again, I, I just think that this idea of like only having Bitcoin and then not worrying about all the other things that could mess up your stack. I just think that it’s a very fragile, very, very fragile situation and people are putting themselves it’s even worse. They’re, they’re, they’re putting in themselves in that I have only Bitcoin and now I’m going leveraged along on that too.

And I’m super bullish too, but guess what? Like the stats I have are better than the stats I could have had because I fucked it up. So, ID just rather have less stats than no sat at all. So it really is. I think having a very, very conservative strategy to get across the finish line is absolutely necessary because Bitcoin’s asymmetric like your, your single sat that you can buy literally millions of, for hundreds of dollars today.

Like it’s gonna be worth over $6 set in today’s buying power. That’s just based on infinity divided by 21 million right now that’s not even accounting for any exponential growth.

[00:38:01] Q: So with these binary outcomes, what in your opinion is where does something like a country having a Bitcoin standard still issuing their own currency, but it’s backed by Bitcoin that everyone can see unlike in the gold standard where they can kind of fudge their numbers a little bit more. Is where does that fall into this binary outcome scenario?

In your opinion, it, would that be a failure in your mind?

[00:38:25] CK: No. I mean, again, like then they’re, they’re eventually settling value and all of their risk is gonna be, you know, measured against the Bitcoin that someone else could have had. So, almost like Fiat currency is kind of like whatever Bitcoin the country has, plus plus whatever credit you wanna give them.

I don’t know. Someone said $6 that says unrealistic and I would call them a bear. Just like in a hybridization scenario. I don’t think that’s unrealistic.

[00:38:53] Q: So how much in a hybrid Bitcoin eyes scenario, how much does the eye power of one Bitcoin hold or what make it simpler? How much can you buy with a quarter of a Bitcoin?

[00:39:07] P: It’s like 225 millions.

[00:39:10] CK: It’s like, it is not humanly possible for me to tell you, like, I can’t be bullish enough. It’s not humanly possible for me to accurately tell you I’m not Nicola Tesla, but maybe like, let’s go back in history and be like, okay, Hey Q, like you’re a poor, you’re a poor farmer. Like when the world is electrified, guess what?

You’re gonna be able to farm 10 times a hundred times, a thousand times more than your field with only one person. That’s the level of, of, of innovation that we’re about to like, experience as humanity. So it’s like, maybe it’s even more, I don’t know, like that, like, that’s the only way that I can, like, I can even remotely like, try to express like where we’re going.

[00:40:01] Q: So have it on record. He refused to answer the question that he proposed by the way. Jesus,

[00:40:07] CK: wait, Pete, did I not answer the question?

[00:40:10] P: You did answer the question. He’s asking an impossible question.

[00:40:13] CK: but I’m, I’m just trying to give you, like I’m saying Bitcoin is a step change improvement on what we were doing before electrician electricity was a step change improvement on what we were doing before.

Right? So like burning, fricking like blubber to having electricity was like, you can’t even compare what was possible before and after. So it’s like, I’m sorry, I’m living in blubber world right now. Trying to tell you what electricity is gonna do the world. No, like I’m sorry. No blubber world sucks. like, I’m, I’m just like you know, I’m just so far behind, like, I’m not that brilliant, but I am humble enough to tell you that.

I know that I’m not that brilliant in that. I know that pretty much. No one else is either.

[00:40:55] Q: I mean, look, to be honest, like to strengthen your argument, you’re using exactly the logic that Ford used when he was asked, like if I asked people what they wanted, they would’ve said faster horses. So like I didn’t give the people what they wanted.

So I do agree to, to a lot of, with a lot of what you were saying that we can’t even fathom or imagine how far this can go and how far reaching it can and will be. I just,

[00:41:19] CK: but also it’s like it either does it, or it doesn’t, that’s the only playing field that we’re in. So it’s like, it doesn’t even make sense to talk about like an in between scenario.

And then when you’re talking about the max success scenario, are you bullish enough? And I don’t think you are. I don’t think anyone is. I don’t think it’s impossible to be bullish enough.

[00:41:36] Q: I think it’s important though, to establish what are the sort of outlier events and by outlier events, events, I genuinely mean it works or does it, because right now where we live, it’s just sort of it’s in the ethos and this is not where it will end.

You are absolutely right. It will not be where it is today. The way its relationship with the global world is, is not the way its relationship will eventually end what I want to better establish though. Or what certain events like why I asked you if a country still is issuing Fiat on a Bitcoin standard, does that propel hyper ization or is that deemed a failure unrealistic in your mind?

I’d love if you I’m

[00:42:17] CK: pretty I’m open mind. I’m pretty open minded to what hip hyper ization can look like. The only criteria I’m saying is that Bitcoin is the fundamental basis of how we measure. so just like electricity is a fundamental basis in which we, you know, we, we interact with energy. I mean, I guess we do it with oil too, but I’m just trying to, again, I’m trying to get on that level.

I’m trying to like compare Bitcoin to what I think Bitcoin is comparable to, which is a step change improvement on how we do literally everything when it comes to measuring value.

[00:42:52] Q: I mean, so it’s rooted, but like a lot of what we’re talking about honestly, is it goes back to what we said at the very beginning of this conversation. The idea that we have to go back to Fiat, that is a, in my opinion, the kiss of death that would actually lead us to Bitcoin failing. Because every single time you have to be like, Bitcoin will be worth $5 million.

One day one, Bitcoin will be. 50,000,000,001 day, like all of

[00:43:16] CK: those types of things, if all that Fiat is backed by Bitcoin, then the, the, the credit scenario in which that you are obliging yourself to is completely different than what it was before. So it’s like, it’s you can’t, again, you can’t say like, we’ll be backed to like a Fiat standard.

If that Fiat is literally measured in Bitcoin. So, or in SATs, because you know, most likely it’ll be like one U S D equals like, you know, a quarter of a sat and, and, you know, you’ll, you’ll be able to put in your, your chunk of your quarter of a sat, you know, you put in your sat, you get like, you know, five S D maybe you need to use those S D when you’re in that jurisdiction, but maybe you’ll think twice before you go to that jurisdiction, cuz the one next door doesn’t make you buy their shit coin to live in that place.

I don’t know. Like I think that that sounds like hyper ization and there’s currently competition currency or there’s and there’s. Country competition. And maybe we’ll all have a, a choice between, you know, if we, if we use Bitcoin or if we use some sort of Bitcoin that is backed by Bitcoin,

you guys are right. I really, I love how everyone is, is, is agreeing with me. Like normally when I push this, this angle, everyone is like, dude, Christian, you’re insane. Like, man, I mean,

[00:44:38] P: all three, totally insane, but in the best possible way,

[00:44:41] Q: You are the two kids in I keep using this fucking thing just cuz it’s so fresh in my mind, but you are the two kids in the big, short that started celebrating that Brad Pitt had to be like, yo, what are you celebrating now?

Fuck that, no, that is not true. No, totally is totally is like what you are celebrating is the demise. And there’s gonna be a lot, lot, a lot, a lot of pain, which I’m not saying is, is not unnecessary. It is going to be necessary to get to this point. But I think we cannot just scoff or ignore these things.


[00:45:10] CK: you’re moving the gold, you’re just saying you’re pretty much saying how did I move the gold hurt when we rip off the bandaid? So let’s just keep the

[00:45:16] Q: bandaid on. No, that’s not what I’m saying. I’m simply saying, where are the pressure points that are going to hurt? Where is the hair on your skin that you have to con be conscious about when you get to that point?

There’s not hair everywhere on my skin, despite how hairy I am. There are certain points while I’m ripping the bandit off, that don’t hurt as much as other points. So what I wanna know is where are the points that are going to really hurt

[00:45:37] P: Q I think get bucked. I think that, I think you’re being a little bit disingenuous here.

I mean, you were texting me earlier trying to get me to invest in your your startup, where you wanna mind Bitcoin with orphans. I think to be having a conversation about humanity and you know, not celebrating too much while you’re simultaneously

[00:45:54] Q: pushing that agenda. Okay. You can’t call me out for moving the goalpost and then like, give me some, like.

Bullshit joke. Like how did I, the goalpost, how with the goalpost,

[00:46:05] P: I feel like you’re putting words in CKS mouth with each of the things, like he’s saying one thing, and then you’re like, how can you, how can you say that? You know, genetically engineered giant crickets will not eat your face off eventually.

[00:46:17] Q: That’s not what I’ve done. I’m simply asking you to explain or think through when this scenario comes to fruition, which I do agree with and believe it will happen. But I frankly believe that there will be moments in time that will be so painful maybe for only small subsets of the population. And to be honest, I fucking hope it’s the government.

I hope it’s government officials. I hope they fucking rot in some shitty system that they fucking started and that Bitcoiners that all of us can fucking succeed as a result. So do not think for a second that I bearish on Bitcoin. I, so, so adamantly believe what I am challenging both of you to do, however, is let’s talk through where we need to be.

Better prepared for a real fight. And where are certain fights that are just, that’s not a real fight, like it like big, you know, the perfect example for me is the Petro dollar. The Petro dollar will take care of itself. That is not something Bitcoiners in my opinion need to be focused on or worried about it is literally happening in real time.

It is happening in real time in Saudi Arabia and Russia that they do not give a flying fuck about getting the dollar back for their oil. So that is like, that is why I think something like the Petro dollar doesn’t need to be. The focus of our time. Something like housing, I think is hugely important to discuss and us to think through how do we get housing outta the hands of the government?

How do we get housing outta the hands of private equity firms and put property realistic and valuable property that people can afford live off of grow their families in the same way we used to hundreds of years ago, how do we do something like that? How do we get, well, we definitely

[00:47:57] CK: don’t wanna go back to hundreds of years.

[00:47:59] Q: No, no, no, no. Sorry. Let me rephrase that. I’m more meaning in the sense of people owning their home, it was not insanely expensive and you could actually afford a home. Families grew up in this environment without this fear of, oh shit. You know what? If the housing market goes a certain direction, I might have to move my family because I can’t afford my mortgage payments anymore.

I wanna never have that again. I want to never have a single family, have to go to sleep afraid that the bank of all things is gonna knock on their door and say, get the fuck out of

[00:48:32] CK: this house. I mean, but like, so one, like you have to accept that we live in a dynamic world and it’s a hard world out there.

And most people aren’t set out for success in that world, but the world also has more tools than ever to give people success. And I think Bitcoin is probably the greatest tool ever in order to, to enable people, to find success, have success, earn success in a sustainable way in which they’re creating value for the world.

So it’s just like, when you talk about like, we need to make sure that no one has goes without a home and that the government never takes a home away from someone it’s like, look, if someone defaulted on their home then yeah. But you know, if homes are less expensive because people aren’t strong value in them more, then maybe more people can afford homes without having to like.

Have fricking home equality or whatever. Like, look, the only thing that you can have equality over in my opinion is, is, is like the laws of physics. And, and that’s, that’s about it. It’s like the laws of physics and then hopefully Bitcoin, right. And, and hopefully not taxes, but that’s it like outside of that, it’s like, none of us are born equal.

Like all of us have to deal with something. And it’s like having the most fair world where people have the chance. I think that’s the most equitable way. Not by effectively making it so that no bad outcome happens to individuals. It’s just like, it is. I don’t know. Again, like, I, I agree with you. I, I think that we are generally speaking very bullish on Bitcoin, but at the same time, it’s like, When I talk about being prepared for the shit show, it’s like, you know, protect yourself, protect your family, make sure like you are prepared for anything that could go down.

Like maybe America is no longer a good place to be. Maybe it’s the best place to be. Who knows? Like, are you prepared for either of those scenarios? Like, I there’s a lot of people in Canada who thought that there was no way in hell that they would be able to not be able to protest and that they were gonna be able to hang out in fricking what is it?

Oh my gosh. Why am I blanking outta the name of the city? It’s it’s so freaking important. Ottawa. Yeah, they, they were thinking they could hang out in Ottawa till the summer. Like they had no idea that their government was gonna go completely AWOL. They weren’t. I mean, they weren’t thinking about those possibilities.

Like if anything, Q my mess, my message is like, Hey, like, You probab like be more bullish on Bitcoin, appreciate the stack. You already have focus on all the other shit that could go wrong. That’s that’s my message. And like, I’m not saying don’t keep sacking, but just like, I don’t know, like you have multiple Bitcoin, like if Bitcoin works, you are Jaire, you’re, you’re chilling, you know, like you have hundreds of millions of Satoshis.

You’re great. You did it. So make sure that you, you make it there in one piece. And on the flip side, if Bitcoin doesn’t work, what are you doing to, to, to make sure that you’re not getting totally, totally screwed by the crazy fallout that’s about toue no matter what,

[00:51:44] P: what do you think about what’s happening in China right now with the the tanks moving in and protecting the,

[00:51:51] CK: The banks.

I mean , it’s, it’s absolutely insane. Did you hear about, so there’s, there’s these banks, I forget which region of China that this is happening in, but they they’re effectively defaulting. They, they don’t even have the cash to like, let people take their money out of ATMs and stuff like that. So the angry depositors start protesting.

Right? And then the, the local Chinese government pretty much turned all their COVID passes on, on positive. So they couldn’t, they couldn’t use, they couldn’t like leave anywhere. They couldn’t they, they couldn’t go to the store. They pretty much like on house arrest. Holy

[00:52:28] P: fuck. Wait, is that confirmed?

They literally just Flipp them off. Absolutely.

[00:52:31] CK: From their deposit, they just flipped their COVID passes on, on, on on, on red and they can’t move anymore. So like more of this shit is gonna happen, guys. Like more of this shit is gonna happen. Are you ready? And I mean, for those people, you know, the way that they could help themselves is holding Bitcoin and cold storage.

So, I mean, governments are gonna continue to act bad. They’re gonna continue to break trust and guess what all the real estate that you have in those governments is liable and susceptible to, to that bullshit. Just like the real estate in California is liable to susceptible of the bullshit in California with you know, if you’re a landlord in California, guess what?

You can’t raise your rent anymore until the government pretty much says. So, if there’s a rent moratorium, then you know, you still have to be a landlord. Your house is still depreciating, but the cash flow goes away. So I mean, all of these things are on the table with these crazy states. Are you prepared for it?

You know, I think people need to read the sovereign individual. I think they need to think about what the sovereign future looks like. And I think they need to think about how messy that transition is gonna be, which you know, Q is obviously talking about.

[00:53:35] Q: I wanna ask you just, and, and we have talked a lot about this already, but like why, why is it. That you think people can’t really fathom how far Bitcoin can and will go. Why, what are the things that are causing people to be stuck in this Fiat mindset?

[00:53:55] CK: I mean, first of all, getting onto the Bitcoin mindset is really hard as like a Bitcoin believer, which is shows why, you know, most Bitcoiners aren’t fully converted over and are frankly bearish.

But too, I I’m like, I can’t stress this enough. Like none of us have the context. Like, you know, it’s like, if you it’s like saying, like, why can’t anyone see a color that they’ve never seen before? Or why can’t anyone imagine a color they’ve never imagine or seen before? It’s like, like none of us like have that ability again, you know, it’s just like, none of us are Nicola Tesla.

None of us can like put together these extraneous dots all around and like put together like some sort of like accurate. View of the future, you know, again, go, go to any like recorded newspaper or a newspaper that’s been around for like, I don’t know, 50, 40, however many years you wanna go less. I mean, probably less than a hundred years.

And like, you can look at like, conversations about what the future is gonna look like completely off, like no one is ever correct ever. So again, like the only way that you can even remotely try to understand, like the step change that Bitcoin brings to the world is to look at other previous step change in the past.

So, you know, I wish that Pete Rizzo was here to push back on me on, on my bullishness, but I really do think. If you look back at the invention of gunpowder, you look back at the invention of steel. You look back at the invention of electricity, you know, all of these stuff, all of these things, you know, everyone before them, they, they had no idea.

They were not even close to imagining where they took us. They, they were not even close.

[00:55:42] Q: Yeah. I, I mean, you can’t imagine what you’ve never seen before. Unfortunately, human imagination has a, a limitation to a producer. It’s not

[00:55:55] CK: humanly possible. Q that’s been my line. It’s not humanly possible to be bullish enough.

[00:56:01] Q: Would you say Michael sailor is bullish enough?

[00:56:05] CK: Haven’t talked to him enough about how bullish he is.

I mean, he, he definitely makes it off that he’s very bullish, but I mean, again, like. I I’m not even bullish enough. Like I can’t be bullish enough. It’s impossible. And this is me admitting that no one can be bullish enough.

[00:56:20] Q: So how do we solve that gap though? Because to your point, Tesla, Nicola, Tesla saw how important electricity was and was the most bullish on helping to push it forward.

And as a result, we still use many of his inventions to this day. And many of those weren’t prepared to be used in his day and age. So I actually challenge you and say, it is humanly possible. His history has taught us that there are thought leaders who think ahead of their time and who can see the importance of certain technologies and push forward these technologies.

So maybe my

[00:57:00] CK: question is it’s like, that’s a diamond in the rough though. I mean, yeah, when I’m saying it’s not humanly possible, I mean that like. It is absolutely ridiculous to think that the average person or even a really smart person could think of it. We’re talking about the one person, the one person that can put together the dots.

Like that’s what we’re talking about here. Not, not, not even a general swath of the population, like the everyone else is bearish.

[00:57:29] Q: So do you think that it will be necessary for some diamond in the rough to help push Bitcoin forward? Or will it be on the masses to push it forward?

[00:57:42] CK: I mean, Bitcoin’s going to keep passion blocks and people will continue finding it useful to store and transfer and communicate value. And that’s gonna continue to build on itself and the possibilities from moving from a inefficient monetary system that leaks value and is very difficult. I mean, like, let’s talk about how difficult it is to make economic calculations on the current monetary system.

Not even the central bankers know what’s going on. Like, how do you expect a mom and pop shop to make any sort of remotely accurate economic calculation? So we’re moving on to a system that doesn’t leak energy, where everyone knows what’s going on 21 million, like my stats or my stats. My percentage of the total cap is, is, is locked in, in certain.

And now I’m building economic calculations off of that. So it’s like. Guess what? None of us are smart enough to know what that world is gonna be like. We’re all still operating on the old world. So like be humble, like be humble with your price predictions, know that you’re too stupid and too bearish to, to come up with something that’s even remotely close to what is gonna happen if Bitcoin isation works or if Bitcoin works and hyper colonization, happenss,

[00:59:04] Q: I’m gonna, I wanna ask you this question that I’ve asked many of our guests, but the 80 20 principle, do you think in a hyper Bitcoin eyes world, a hundred percent of people will actually understand Bitcoin or will it kind of fall in the same way?

We’ve seen something like electricity where the vast majority of users, like don’t really know what’s happening behind the scenes. When they flip their light switch on

[00:59:25] CK: you don’t need to know what’s happening. You just need to know how to use it. And again, I would argue that most people can’t use Fiat effectively.

but I hope that a Bitcoin based world, people will be able to use Bitcoin effectively to make economic calculations, and that will change everything. Everyone being able to make good economic calculations is gonna change everything. So, and I think that puts the power back in individual’s hands in a, in a really, really big way.

[00:59:56] Q: Okay. I, I want to answer, I want an answer in two dif two different questions of the same vein how much Bitcoin is enough for the average Bitcoin investor in a hyper ization scenario. And how much is enough Bitcoin for a business? How much Bitcoin exposure do businesses need in prepar for high, for ization?

Those are impossible questions to answer. These are literally the questions he sent me. Pete, these are the questions he

[01:00:20] CK: sent. I didn’t say business, but I would say whatever Bitcoin, you can hold is the right amount, but I just wanna put some things in perspective. And I talked about, we got, if you are considering our current scenario, dividing it by 21 million that’s baseline, super bearish, but I’m just gonna use that logic.

And I’m again, this is just linear math. There’s no exponentials. There’s no regression, nothing just straight division. Okay. So if you, as a person wanna get your one person’s worth of Bitcoin. So 7.9 billion people divide by 21 million. You need 265,000 stats. So that’s a today’s current population and all of the Bitcoin 265,000 stats.

So you can buy that for like 50 bucks right now. All right. If you wanna get a millionaires worth of value. So now we’re talking about global millionaires. So we’re talking about there’s 56.1 million millionaires on the globe. So now we’re talking about 0.37 for BTC. So. 34 or 37 million, 400,000 stats per millionaire.

Again, no regression, no distribution, like just straight linear math. Okay. So take all this with a grain of salt. So, I mean, you don’t even need a Bitcoin to be in the millionaire class, you know, in, in this future. And again, that’s not even factor in the growth that will come from Bitcoin, being a fundamental upgrade to how we measure and store and express value across the globe.

Like that’s not even factoring in any of that. So, I mean, that’s not bad again, you can get, you can get 0.3, seven Bitcoin for, you know, like 7,000 bucks right now. I, I love the book sovereign individual. I think sovereign individual is one of the most bullish books about hyper ization out there. They predict that there’s gonna be a hundred million sovereign individuals in this future sovereign individual world, again, like directional guests.

Like, obviously this is not fricking like rocket science or any sort of like, you know, real math here. But again, you know, you take a hundred million sovereign individuals, 21 million Bitcoin. Now we’re talking 0.2, one Bitcoin per sovereign individual. So, I mean, I’m just trying to like throw this out there.

So you people start thinking about like the dimensions in which like we’re talking about. And then like I’m saying, like, if you wanna be bullish enough, now you, now you, you bring that up, like in an expon, you know, you, you increase whatever those price S predictions are by an order of magnitude. And then maybe you’re in the ballpark

[01:02:49] Q: and then add a zero, right.

[01:02:52] CK: I mean, yeah, that’s an order of magnitude right there. So I said only one, not two orders of magnitude Q, but I’m a bear. So maybe two I’ll go through. I’ll admit I’m a bear.

[01:03:03] Q: All right. What is, although I like, we know the answer to this question. What is the most practical way to prepare for binary Bitcoin outcomes,

[01:03:13] CK: hyper ization or zero, get enough stats, make sure you don’t lose those stats, do everything you can and not fuck that up.

And then if Bitcoin goes to zero, you know, probably good to have some other shit.

[01:03:25] Q: Should we be discussing this idea that going to like overexposing yourself to Bitcoin, to a point where you are uncomfortable with its day to day price movement. Is that something that people just need to sum stomach or is that a little too far?

[01:03:45] CK: Yeah, I would, I would highly recommend against that because I think Bitcoin, again, put this really well. You know, you have a cash balance and you have an emotional balance, so you might be good on the cash side to handle that, but maybe your emotional balance is getting drained as that too. So you just gotta be realistic.

You’re human. You know, again, you don’t have to kill yourself to be wildly wealthy at Bitcoin works. That’s my whole message is like, dude, fucking buy the tank, buy the gun, get multiple passports, make sure you’re feasting, you know, spend money on, on getting across the finish line the right way in, in style.

And you probably already have enough obsess. Like honestly, if you’re bullish enough,

I’m not saying to stop buying Bitcoin. I’m just saying respect the Bitcoin. You already bought like, appreciate that shit.

[01:04:44] Q: I will. Say it a million times and I will continue to say it. What works for me may not work for CK may not work for P may not work for you. You have to take the time to really calculate this out for yourself and what your appetite is. And I think that’s one of the most beautiful things about Bitcoin, because it really forces you to think through your own personal finances in a way that to EK’s point from earlier, the Fiat system has never forced you to do so.

So I urge everyone to like, none of this is meant to be financial advice. This is just a conversation amongst three friends. This is literally how CK and I talk to each other in every single staff rating. So you guys just gotta sneak peek at how, how conversations at BTC Inc and Bitcoin magazine really go down.

Do your own due diligence. None of this is financial advice. Don’t listen to three talking heads on the internet.

P any thoughts here? No,

[01:05:41] P: I’m just enjoying the fireworks, man. I love seeing, I love seeing CK and, and Q just going at it. I mean, honestly, I think I made it pretty clear. I, I take CK side in this, on most of these issues, but

[01:05:53] CK: we need get Zo in here. Q needs some help. Yeah,

[01:05:56] P: no, no, no.

[01:05:57] Q: I mean, I don’t need help.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I’ve held my own. You’ve done a fantastic job. I’ve held my own. I don’t need a babysitter here. Ben CK needed Pease help. If anything,

[01:06:07] P: look Q put on his big boy pants today and he did a

[01:06:10] Q: great job. Shout out no pants club. I was gonna ask you,

[01:06:14] P: are you wearing pants right now? That’s how, you know your full-time dollar status?

[01:06:17] Q: Well, so I wanna address this, cuz this has actually been on my mind during this whole conversation to go back to P yours in mind conversation with June Seth and American huddle and huddle throughout something that. likes is just gonna be like, he’s being way too bearish. But this idea that every single pleb is gonna get their castle one day with their 0.0, oh oh one Bitcoin stack.

Yeah. I mean, I agree like there is a line here. I think there is a line because again, I’m not trying to be a fucking bear, but I believe that my kids and my kids‘ kids will benefit far more from the growth of Bitcoin as the global monetary system than I ever will in my lifetime. So I’m very big on actually I have a certain stack amount that I want to put purely as my inheritance pop pot.

And then I wanna have a separate stack account that’s mine for while, while I’m alive. And quite frankly, I don’t know if that makes me bearish or not, but I do think that there is a little bit of, I think, realism in my approach that while I would love nothing more. Then to literally only transact in Bitcoin, literally have bought my fucking house by the beach and my house on my favorite ski mountain that I will not tell anyone because if everyone fucking knows where that is, it’ll get blown up.

And I do not, not walk that one but like, of course I want these things, but I also am prepared to obtain those things through other means. I think there is a little bit of naivety and hope and a, actually a lot of hopium and a lot of people that are not calculated risk enough and they think in, if they don’t pay their rent today by next week, Bitcoin will pump.

And they’ll be good to go.

[01:08:14] P: I completely agree with you there. I mean, that was what I was saying. Like, this is a marathon, right? Like, I, I, I will let me, let me Let me qualify what I said before. I think the statement like who knows if 37 sets will be generational wealth within our lifetimes, but, and I think to your point, you know, we need to be realistic, which is why it’s so important to like manage one’s cash flow.

Like, I mean, look like if, if if you go into it, like I only have 37 thoughts and I’m never gonna need to work again. Like that’s not gonna work realistically on a lifetime time scale on somebody who’s currently alive today. So I, I hear what you’re saying to you. I, I don’t disagree. I think being B, having a balanced position and by that, I mean, opinion is also important.

[01:08:56] Q: That said, though, I do believe what Peter DIAND has been throwing out there that in our lifetime, it will be very likely that we can extend our lifespan. So to CKS point, you probably don’t have enough Bitcoin. If your lifespan actually ends up being 150 years,

[01:09:12] CK: I mean guys, like the whole point, the whole point of my talk is that it’s gonna be a shit show.

You need to prepare for all the different factors, including Bitcoin zero. But if Bitcoin not zero, Bitcoin’s gonna be worth a shit load. And I mean, Q like, I totally agree. Like you should have a Bitcoin stack for the future and that the future is going to benefit from Bitcoin far more than we will. But with that being said, like, you know, our lifetime is pretty long, you know, both of us, you know, not, not quite 30 yet, and a lot can happen if you don’t die, you know, if you, if you make it to the eighties, you make it to the nineties, you know, 90 year olds an now, already living far better than 90 year olds ever lived before.

So, I’m, I’m hopeful. I’m, I’m, I’m pretty hopeful that you’re gonna be able to, to see the fruits of your Bitcoin too. Maybe it won’t be, you know, it won’t be 37 stats as generational wealth territory quite yet, but, you know, Us making it to 2140 past past the next block or going to zero block reward.

That’s probably unlikely too.

[01:10:15] Q: Before, before we wrap up today, CK, what are any other points that we haven’t been able to touch on that you wanna touch on,

[01:10:24] CK: man? Respect the Bitcoin. You already have be, try, try your best to be bullish enough. It’s not humanly possible. It’s stupid to talk about Bitcoin in some middle scenario, it’s either ultimate success or it’s gonna kill itself.

Like literally it’ll kill itself. As in it will stop paying for minors and no one will care. Right. So it’ll kill itself. So, yeah, be bullish enough, be prepared for for everything or nothing and you know, make sure that. Yeah, you, you figure out all the other things so you can get across this crazy fucking, you know, triple harbinger you know, forth turning whatever the fuck we’re about to experience

[01:11:01] Q: P final thoughts,

[01:11:10] P: I would say,

Have again, I’d remind everybody that everything we’ve said, you know, we talk a lot about getting your money off exchanges, taking radical, personal financial responsibility, and I cannot stress enough, make sure that you actually are taking that responsibility, go and learn how to use the tools.

Make sure you understand how backups work, make sure you understand the risks and how to effectively store your seed phrases and go through that process at a pace that you are able to take in that information, because if you fuck it up and lose your seed phrase, you know, there is no CEO of Bitcoin that’s on you.

So go do it, but learn how to do it responsibly. There’s a, that’s how

[01:11:48] CK: one gets even richer. there you go. I heard, I heard that we’re we’re a little early, so maybe we should talk about Bitcoin Amsterdam. Let’s do it. Y’all see. I am. I, I, I may be overly bullish on Bitcoin Amsterdam, but I think it’s the right amount of bullish.

I’m pretty hyped. It’s gonna be awesome.

[01:12:08] Q: Why is it gonna be awesome. CK tell you got, you got a lot more deeds than either of us do. So why don’t you spill some beans here?

[01:12:15] CK: Well, I mean, we’re first and foremost, we’re dropping awesome speakers left and right. But we’re about to roll out a new campaign and try to motivate Bitcoiners in Europe to start pushing back harder and start to try to, you know, one, introduce more people to Bitcoin, but to to help, you know, their regulators and the people around them to understand Bitcoin is real.

Bitcoin is here in Europe and, you know, Bitcoin is something that’s good. Bitcoin is something that Europe needs desperately right now. The Euro is in, in disarray. It’s lowest point since what, 2001 against the dollar. The Eurozone is in disarray. We see WF clowns everywhere within European government.

So it’s, it’s not looking good in Europe and Europe needs Bitcoin and Bitcoin Amsterdam is the best place in order to meet Bitcoiners in order to experience Bitcoin in order to meet with the Bitcoin industry. And just frankly, like I PQ, I know you guys have both been there as well. Like Amsterdam is sick.

Amsterdam is absolutely. Absolutely. Really. Okay. Well, I mean,

[01:13:19] P: this is gonna be,

[01:13:20] Q: I’m so excited. Like this is why I keep joking that like, I may never come back because I, everyone has always told me how much I need to go and visit this city, how it’s like. So me, I love to bike. As everyone knows, I’m as big a stoner as they come and this fucking tolerance break is killing me.

There is I think, a legitimate chance I will not return.

[01:13:51] CK: In that case, we need to make sure that you don’t go at all. no, keep you here.

[01:13:56] Q: I’m not saying I’m not returning to Bitcoin magazine. I’m just saying I’m not returned to America.

[01:14:04] Commercials: All my friends,

[01:14:07] P: I think. Oh, go

[01:14:08] Q: ahead. You first, I just wanna remind everyone, cuz I don’t think CKO said it. Ticket prices for Bitcoin. AMAM go up on Friday. So locking those tickets now don’t don’t snooze. Don’t FOMO into this thing. We’re we’re trying to do this more so because we know if there was a large European contingent of Bitcoiners who had a hard time trying to come to America, we’re doing this for you guys.

So we’d love to see all of you. We’d love to meet all of you there. It’ll be a giant party, so let’s do it.

[01:14:34] P: CJ. Be awesome. Thank you so much for joining us today. Gonna give you the final word and then we’ll go to commercial and we will be back with BTC sessions.

[01:14:46] CK: Yo, I gotta give BTC sessions a huge shout out.

He is one of the very first people that taught me about Bitcoin bought my first hardware wallet after watching his videos and y’all can follow me at CK under scores. Go check out Bitcoin magazine, go check out Bitcoin conference, both Bitcoin 23 and Bitcoin Amsterdam. If you want to get our Bitcoin Amsterdam whale experience, do it now.

We just dropped a bunch of details on the website. So check that out as well. All right. Y’all thanks for having me stay bullish.


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